It's unlikely that either will have anything to do with the 2025 HK Derby but the two most interesting things to happen in the four-year-old space for the new HK season came within the space of the last two weeks.
Sunday's Chief Executive's Cup win by Ka Ying Rising was simply WOW! On our ratings, this was the best sprint performance in HK since Able Friend won the 2015 Premier Bowl in a stunning run that saw him rated the world's best turf sprinter.
That win rated 103 on our scale - and anything over 100 is very rare air indeed. The last-to-first effort gutted Able Friend and spurred on niggling injuries that ended his career soon after but the enormity of Ka Ying Rising's win on Sunday - rating 102 - was that he looked to do it with comfort. Not just wow, but scary wow.
Anyone who didn't think he was the HK Sprint favourite for December must surely be convinced now - if it was run in October, he would be odds-on.
Does he belong on a page like this which is looking towards the Derby? There's probably as much chance of Ka Ying Rising showing up in the 2025 HK Derby as there is of his trainer, David Hayes, winning Dancing With The Stars, but, as a four-year-old, the son of Shamexpress is eligible - and we did say something similar about Galaxy Patch in his early days as a sprinter last preparation only to see him run a super second on Derby day.
Ka Ying Rising now has 8 starts for 6 wins and two photo-finish seconds and the only horse to have beaten him is John Size-trained four-year-old, Wunderbar, twice.
We haven't seen Wunderbar since he beat Ka Ying Rising in January, and he underwent knee surgery soon after to remove a bone chip. But he won a trial on August 29 as the first step on his comeback and Ka Ying Rising's progress since has everyone eagerly awaiting Wunderbar's resumption.